What limits reasoning capability beyond math and code?
Can scaling reasoning to open-ended domains like economics and social sciences be solved by better training methods, or does the real bottleneck lie elsewhere? This explores what actually constrains broader reasoning.
Reasoning models are trained largely via RL on tasks where the reward can be rule-verified — which is why existing reasoning datasets cluster in narrow domains with short, easily checked solutions (math, coding). But most reasoning across broader domains is open-ended. NaturalReasoning's argument is that the binding constraint for scaling reasoning beyond math and code is not a better training method but the supply of diverse, challenging questions.
It addresses that with a scalable generation approach producing 2.8M questions (with reference answers) curated from pretraining corpora, spanning physics, computer science, economics, social sciences, and more — selected for diversity and difficulty relative to existing datasets. The evidence that the data, not the method, is the lever: distillation experiments show consistent improvement on reasoning benchmarks as data size scales, and the dataset also enables unsupervised self-training via external reward models or self-rewarding.
The methodological keeper is that question difficulty and breadth are first-class inputs to reasoning capability — "reasoning in the wild" requires more deliberate thinking than narrow verifiable datasets elicit, and capability transfers from a strong teacher through these questions. This complements Can models improve themselves on tasks without verifiable answers?: that note shows a small demonstration set can unlock general reasoning; NaturalReasoning shows a large question set scales it. Together they bracket the question-supply problem from the demonstration and scale directions.
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Can models improve themselves on tasks without verifiable answers?
Most self-improvement methods require verifiable correctness signals like math or code. Can models improve on open-ended instruction tasks where right answers aren't automatically checkable? And what minimal training is needed to unlock this?
complementary lever: small demonstration set vs large question set for generalizing reasoning
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Do base models already contain hidden reasoning ability?
Explores whether reasoning capability emerges during pre-training as a latent feature rather than being created by post-training methods like reinforcement learning or fine-tuning.
diverse questions are one such unlocking signal
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What limits how much models can improve themselves?
Explores whether self-improvement has fundamental boundaries set by how well models can verify versus generate solutions, and what this means across different task types.
open-ended questions widen where self-rewarding can work without rule verifiers
Related papers in this collection 8
Papers most semantically related to this note, ranked by cosine similarity in the embedding space.
- Beyond Scaling Law: A Data-Efficient Distillation Framework for Reasoning
- NaturalReasoning: Reasoning in the Wild with 2.8M Challenging Questions
- Agentic Reasoning: Reasoning LLMs with Tools for the Deep Research
- A Comment On "The Illusion of Thinking": Reframing the Reasoning Cliff as an Agentic Gap
- The Illusion of Thinking: Understanding the Strengths and Limitations of Reasoning Models via the Lens of Problem Complexity
- Chain-of-Reasoning: Towards Unified Mathematical Reasoning in Large Language Models via a Multi-Paradigm Perspective
- The Invisible Leash: Why RLVR May Not Escape Its Origin
- ProRL: Prolonged Reinforcement Learning Expands Reasoning Boundaries in Large Language Models
Original note title
scaling reasoning beyond math and code is gated by question diversity not method — broad open-ended question data transfers reasoning via distillation and self-training